Talk:Four square

No mention of the English variant, Kingey? I propose adding a section to the Four square article!

Kingey was the main sport played at many schools in the south of England, including Parlaunt Park, Castleview and Langley Grammar Schools (all located in Slough). I personally played the game from 1981-1994 and my friends at that time played it in schools throughout the county of Berkshire, England. I'm also aware that it was played in the 1970's too. The Australian variation, Downball, shares nearly all the same terminology.

Citation 1 - Me! Citation 2 - http://everything.explained.at/Kingey/ Citation 3 - http://www.odps.org/glossword/index.php?a=term&d=2&t=1147 Citation 4 - http://xklsv.org/viewwiki.php?title=Kingey

Changeling2008 (talk) 15:41, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

if you feel it is necessary then by all means go ahead. Kerna96 (talk) 23:48, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

àl mallboi (talk) 02:58, 8 August 2019 (UTC)Noàl mallboi (talk) 02:58, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Date

The date of 1964 is way to late. I played four square in grade school during the 1950s. Maybe 1964 refers to the establishment of some "official" organization. Wschart (talk) 00:20, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Completely agree. In elementary school in the 1950s in West Chester PA we played four square a lot after school, while we played dodgeball (under the name bombardment) at school. And we had an obvious variant, two square, where just two players face each other. Colin McLarty (talk) 09:31, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Squares

I propose the change of the heir achy Ace being the number one square followed by Kings, Queens then Dunce

I wish for that to be included in the article maybe as a an alternative gameplay or the main — Preceding unsigned comment added by Manuel hodges (talk • contribs) 02:50, 13 March 2016 (UTC) àl mallboi (talk) 03:00, 8 August 2019 (UTC)From my experience, this is mainstream.àl mallboi (talk) 03:00, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Simple explanation

I came here to find out what this game was, having never heard of it before.

Having read the entire article, I still don't really know. I assumed an encylopedia article would have a simple summary of the subject in question. This one sure doesn't.

For example:

"Football (also known as Soccer) is a sport played between two teams of eleven players with a spherical ball. The game is played on a rectangular field with a goal at each end. The object of the game is to score by getting the ball into the opposing goal."

The best this article offers is "...to eliminate other players to achieve the highest rank", which tells me precisely nothing, and raises more questions than it answers. Eliminate how? What rank? Damage (talk) 16:06, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

You're absolutely correct. There's no description of gameplay. Gotham77 (talk) 03:40, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Handball (school)

I propose that the Handball (school) article be merged into Four square. The Handball (school) article talks a lot about it being a variation of handball, but the game is really just a regional variety of four square. There isn't really much noteworthy cited content in that article beyond what could easily be included in its own section in the four square page. The sections on rules and pop culture should probably be blanked as the material is either of little importance or is uncited. Kb.au (talk) 17:31, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

I disagree. While the rules may be a "variation", they are different enough to be considered a separate game. I note that the page views are quite healthy for a regional variation. Doctorhawkes (talk) 20:52, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Downball

There was a redirect from Downball to Four square. Based on the statement in Downball that Downball and Four square are different games, I have accepted Downball as a separate article. This appears to be contrary to the conclusion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Downball, and further discussion is in order. For now, there are two articles. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:36, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

There's not very much in the Downball article to warrant keeping, IMHO. As I said at the AFD (7 years ago!), I think they are different but it is hard to find decent sources. Doctorhawkes (talk) 12:43, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

I have no idea whether anyone has ever called foursquare "downball". However, there was/is (also?) a totally different game — somewhat similar to Australian handball — which was downball. Please see my comments.

—DIV (1.129.111.116 (talk) 03:05, 20 October 2019 (UTC))

P.S. OK, I just looked at the downball article, and it's correct. It's definitely a different game.

I have sent the redirect at Down ball to Downball, rather than to the present article on Four-square. I've also added text and some cross-references. —DIV (1.129.111.116 (talk) 03:38, 20 October 2019 (UTC))

Boy, thirteen, kicks ball onto roof while raging during four square

Teacher sentences him to blacktop walking Kosburrat (talk) 16:37, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Though I doubt there will be any citable sources for it

I feel the myriad of "special moves" ought to be included here, as that was the primary focus of the game when I was a kid (it's a bit yawnworthy otherwise.) You'd come up with creative and difficult-to-anticipate ways of returning the ball into someone else's square, and shout out its special move name. The article does mention Popcorn at least, which I definitely remember. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:449:4582:CB00:306F:4ECA:56E2:5F11 (talk) 08:04, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

525568813921 117.98.126.4 (talk) 09:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

What is the 'primary square'?

There are currently mentions of some rules which can be determined by the 'primary square' – but no explanation of what/who the 'primary square' is! 2A02:8070:8E82:1040:8466:4917:6716:1350 (talk) 10:02, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Downball into Four square

They're the same thing Sushidude21! (talk) 02:33, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

• Support the merge. Itzcuauhtli11 (talk) 20:07, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Handball (schoolyard game) into Four square

Same thing again Sushidude21! (talk) 00:06, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

I oppose this move, they are very much not the same as four square has (seemingly) far fewer rules and is thus distinct. Also, handball has its own cultural significance in Australasia, as a part of the childhood of millions (and is even popularised enough that the Australian Prime Minister referenced it, as per the article) , thus I believe it does not meet WP:ATD-M and it is deserving of its own page for the moment. Moonbloom (talk) 08:38, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

Oppose. Clearly different. Doctorhawkes (talk) 10:43, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

Merge four square into handball (definitely do not do what Sushidude21! is suggesting) – I'm not sure what Moonbloom is talking about regarding four square. As someone who grew up playing American four square, I can confirm that the rules at Four square#Rules are broadly accurate, and assuming the rules at Handball (schoolyard game)#Rules are broadly accurate, they're similar enough to warrant sharing an article. Doctorhawkes says "Clearly different" and nothing else, leaving me nothing to go on for why they're so different. That said, I would suggest that four square would be a subset of handball and thus would be merged into it (getting its own section as a unique variety of the game). (No opinion yet on Downball.) Let's line up four square concepts and see where they differ:

• Players line up in roughly equally sized, adjacent regions (no regulations, but sizes of handball regions look the same as four square). ✅
• The player at the "top" region serves a ball at the start of the game and after each out. ✅
• The player who becomes out either goes to the bottom square while the other players move up – or goes to the back of the line. ✅
• The ball must be hit into another region with your hands. ✅ Some four square players are particular about one-handed hits, but this is just a minor variation on the game.
• Allowing the ball to bounce more than once in your square gets you out. ✅
• Touching the ball last before the ball goes out of bounds gets you out. ✅
• Holding the ball gets you out. ✅
• Interfering gets you out. ✅
• Hitting a line can get you out, can get a round restarted, just kind of depends on arbitrary playground rules. ✅
• The four squares are labeled 1–4, A–D, or sometimes as the faces of poker cards. ❌ At face value, handball squares do not seem to be labeled, but this is frankly a difference so trivial that it could be clarified within the same article. Moreover, this is an instance where four square is more specific than handball.
• The player uses a large ball, often a dodgeball. ❌ Handball seems to use smaller balls than four square, but realistically any ball can be used as long as the players agree on it. Again, handball's choice of ball seems to be more varied than a typical game of four square.
• The game has exactly four regions. ❌ This is probably the biggest difference in that handball has at least two. I've played four square with two and three players, but I've never seen six like I'm seeing in some games of handball.
• The regions are square. ❌ This can happen with four square too, but realistically you're trying to get as square as possible. Again, four square becomes a special case of handball.
• You hit the ball into the other player's square first, not your own. ❌ Handball makes you land the ball in your own square first before it goes to another player's. One isn't a subset of the other, but it's a small enough difference that it could easily be clarified in a 'Four square' section.
• Rolling will restart the round. (Probably) ✅. It's hard to say given dodgeballs are so bouncy, but if you really did get it so low it didn't distinguishably bounce, it'd probably get a round restarted too.

Let's keep some things in mind. 1) Four square by every meaningful metric is a subgame of handball. 2) However, they're not that meaningfully distinct. Most of the rules that matter are identical. 3) Unlike something like Canadian football and American football, these games don't have official rules, official organizations, or widespread, well-documented cultures that make them worth distinct articles. 4) The amount of information we have on both is minimal, making them easily merged while still maintaining a coherent article. Would our coverage of these games be meaningfully different if we had a level 2 header 'Four square' section in the article on handball? Consider the information we have in 'Four square' right now:

• The lead section which just summarizes everything.
• A 3-sentence history. This is trivial to fit into a full section.
• The rules. This section would be considerably shorter if we could just list the differences from handball rather than re-explaining so much of what the handball article already does.
• Variations. Again, like three sentences (one of which is cited to a PewDiePie video, which is batshit insane to use as a source for anything like this).
• World championships. Uncited; single sentence; basically meaningless.
• World records. This section is just fluff comprised of human interest stories. Imagine if the article on ice hockey had a section about the longest games of ice hockey ever played according to Guinness. It's irrelevant and only there because we don't have anything else meaningful to say about four square.
• Common terms. 100% uncited, and four square is so widely played (we never had any of these three terms) that trying to pin down common terms without a reliable source is meaningless.

You could trivially fit this into a section and have no impact on the readability, relevance, or comprehensiveness (if anything, it'd probably be better for the article). TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 03:09, 18 March 2025 (UTC)