Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Song Contests

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Proposal on establishing articles under remit of WikiProject Song Contests and importance scale

PASSED

While input was limited, the general consensus after over a month was to proceed with the new importance scale and articles considered under the scope of WikiProject Song Contests.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

As part of the renaming of the WikiProject, I believe it's important that we find consensus on which articles should remain under the remit of the new WP Song Contests, which should be removed from the project's scope, as well as how we scale them in terms of importance. I have outlined my thoughts on this, and would be grateful for any comments or suggestions as this is definitely not yet set in stone!

Top-importance: For...

...the main article for each contest covered by the project, including:

High-importance: For...

...articles that describe a contest for each year
...articles that describe a country's participation in an international contest

Mid-importance: For...

...articles that describe a country's participation in an international contest for one year only
...articles on songs which competed in one of the events covered by the project
...other articles and lists about a particular event covered by the project

Low-importance: For...

...biographical articles on artists which competed in an event covered by the project

Things that I believe should not be included within the scope of the project:

Broadcasters which participate in/organise an event
Contest venues
Biographical articles for people who did not compete in an event, e.g.:

individuals related to a contest entry but which did not perform as a main artist, e.g. backing singers, songwriters, conductors, choreographers, creative directors
contest presenters
production staff
other performers (singers/dancers etc.) that were involved in performances outside of a contest's participating entries (e.g. opening/interval acts)

Articles for events which do not fall under the definition of a "song contest", including:

singing talent shows, e.g. Idol, The X Factor, Masked Singer
dancing competitions, e.g. Dancing with the Stars, Eurovision Dance Contest, Eurovision Young Dancers
other music competitions where original songs are not a main feature, e.g. Eurovision Young Musicians, Eurovision Choir
music events without a competitive element, e.g. ABU TV Song Festival

Any other articles currently listed as under the remit of WikiProject Eurovision which do not fall under the new criteria above, including:

articles related to the European Broadcasting Union and other international broadcasting organisations
technical articles related to broadcasting
other events organised by the EBU, e.g. Magic Circus Show, Jeux sans frontières

Sims2aholic8 (talk) 14:32, 20 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I support this. I also like that songs have moved up a level from 'low' to 'mid'. Grk1011 (talk) 18:56, 20 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah that was a bit of a strange discovery for me to be honest, especially given how many good articles we have which cover the competing songs (60 as of 21 February 2025) compared to relevant biographical articles for singers (8 as of same date). Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:55, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

We're likely to gain hundreds of songs from national finals as part of this change. That's ok, but just pointing out that while we lose some articles, we'll likely end up with many many more than before. As we look to remove banners, it may also make sense prior to that to determine which articles may warrant an AfD discussion. There are a lot of stubs that have been created over the years solely to accomplish the project Objectives, which were intended just for ESC, but have naturally expanded to cover all the various contests. It isn't clear if many are actually notable. I'm thinking the various "country in"," country in year", etc. articles. Examples: Belgium in the Eurovision Young Dancers, Belgium in the Eurovision Young Musicians, Kyrgyzstan in the ABU TV Song Festival and the like. Grk1011 (talk) 14:12, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Do we think it might be worthwhile pinging all project members on this as well? Just noticing it's been almost a week and we've had very little engagement. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 18:44, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Ktkvtsh: Sorry to rely on you a lot for this! I don't suppose you could ping all members about this discussion? Just conscious we've had very little engagement. Now whether that's because people aren't interested or haven't seen it is the question. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 16:24, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I will put something together. Ktkvtsh (talk) 14:44, 13 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Sims2aholic8 it is

Done Ktkvtsh (talk) 17:48, 13 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I see no problem with this proposal. I support it. But presenters/hosts of the main ESC should be included.BabbaQ (talk) 18:29, 13 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@BabbaQ: The question is: would these articles be articles that members of this WikiProject are actually going to be maintaining regularly? The vast majority of presenters are only going to have presented a single contest (in fact only three individuals have presented more than one contest in its 70 year history), and it's only going to be a small part of their biography. It may not even be something that is part of the lede if a person has done a lot in their career. Also, why do you suggest that we limit it to just ESC presenters? I don't understand the idea that ESC presenters are somehow more notable, but people that presented any other TV song contest are not. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 19:31, 13 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

While not exactly the same thing, I think we could make a policy-based argument here to omit producers and hosts. WP:PERFCAT (for categories) does a good job at separating out what's important. These people are performing duties/jobs that are largely replaceable by others who would do nearly the same task. They are important, but unlike the actual songs and performers, they themselves aren't integral to the contest, their position/role is. As Sims2aholic8 was hinting at, for many of these people, being part of the song contest is likely just one of hundreds of engagements they may take part in and their articles will never be cared for in the same way project members will for the actual songs and participations. We want to make sure the project's articles are articles that members could eventually see themselves bringing to GA, FA, etc. if they had time. Categories, prose, wikilinks, etc. are how we acknowledge the roles of the supporting staff. Grk1011 (talk) 13:43, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I second this. Ktkvtsh (talk) 14:43, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Discussion notice

There is currently a discussion at Template talk:Infobox song contest national year regarding proposed changes to Template:Infobox song contest national year. The thread is "Selection date" for internal selections and other proposed changes. Thank you. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 10:51, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Detailed televoting results

Should we show separate SMS/phone/online votes in the results table? I'm talking about the cases of Germany, Croatia, Benidorm Fest, etc. I know that broadcasters have published detailed results in this way, but I think all this information is not necessary and just takes up space unnecessarily. I'm only talking about those cases where votes are added up, i.e. no matter how they were cast, they are worth the same points

I suggest changing it from this:

Final
Draw	Artist	Song	Jury	Televote				Total	Place
Draw	Artist	Song	Jury	Phone	SMS	Total	Points	Total	Place
1	EoT	"Bye Bye Bye"	30	4,488	4,844	9,332	21	51	8
2	Natalli	"Dom si srcu mom"	2	2,549	987	3,536	8	10	15

To just this:

Final
Draw	Artist	Song	Jury	Televote		Total	Place
Draw	Artist	Song	Jury	Votes	Points	Total	Place
1	EoT	"Bye Bye Bye"	30	9,332	21	51	8
2	Natalli	"Dom si srcu mom"	2	3,536	8	10	15

Balandėliai (talk) 20:49, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I think as long as we're not duplicating information then having multiple columns with votes from different sources is fine when these are provided by broadcasters, and I think providing this information is relevant to the reader. What I don't like to see is the same information being presented two different ways, e.g. the raw votes and the percentage share, which I believe is redundant. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 17:37, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see the harm as long as there is a valid reference. Sometimes we get close to running into WP:NOTSTATS issues, but the specific example here appears to be pretty straight forward and helpful for the reader (and not some sort of analysis for example). Grk1011 (talk) 13:25, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I would remove it from the main table, and somehow either put the numbers in the jury table, or make a separate televoting table altogether — IмSтevan ^talk 17:14, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-finals and the automatic qualifiers

Now that we've seen how the role of automatic qualifiers is executed following 2024, I think it's time to revisit the format of the semi-final tables. They clearly have an impact on how the show is structured, take up as much space as a competing act, are presented as competing acts, and one of the reasonings behind opening voting at the start of the final is that the audience already saw all competing acts previously. Personally, I looked at how Festivali i Këngës tables used to be formatted, where despite automatic qualifiers for the final apearing during the show to perform their entries, they are still competing acts. Here is my proposal:

Key: ‡ Automatic qualifiers

Participants of the first semi-final of the Eurovision Song Contest 2025
R/O	Country	Artist	Song
1	Iceland	Væb	"Róa"
2	Poland	Justyna Steczkowska	"Gaja"
3	Slovenia	Klemen	"How Much Time Do We Have Left"
4	Estonia	Tommy Cash	"Espresso Macchiato"
–	Spain ‡	Melody	"Esa diva"
5	Ukraine	Ziferblat	"Bird of Pray"

— IмSтevan ^talk 17:24, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hasn't this issue already been discussed already? My take on this is that they are not competing, they're a bit like an interval act of some sort during the semis. Including them in the table is misleading as the table is mostly here for the results, which AQ don't have in the semis... Yoyo360^{message me} 11:53, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like the previous discussion ended with us revisiting this at the next contest (now). Personally my thoughts have not changed. These tables are not really a run of show, but instead a way to present the results. Grk1011 (talk) 13:12, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

As Grk pointed out, we were to wait to see how the shows work with them included, which we now have. Even if they don't compete in the semis, they are competing entries and are performed and presented as such, and I think they should have a spot in the table — IмSтevan ^talk 14:29, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I do agree that a further discussion is warranted, given we decided as a collective to wait and see how things panned out in Malmö and what the situation would eventually develop into for 2025. I concur with Grk1011 that my thoughts have also not changed on this. The tables are principally about the results of those shows, and since those six countries are not competing I believe it would be misleading to put them in this way. We don't have rows for any other opening or interval act, and although they are competing entries in the contest as a whole these are still guest performances for the semis and I don't believe they should be treated differently from those other guest performances. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 16:04, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Call for help with logos

Hi to all.

I've been reviewing the ESC logo files we are using throughout history in the contest articles, and most of them are fantastic. They're in SVG format and/or have a transparent background, giving the corresponding contest article infobox a polished look. I've recently been able to add eight new logos in SVG myself. But there are sixteen that I haven't been able to improve, these are:

Is there anyone who could help with this please? Ferclopedio (talk) 14:12, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]